Hi have a beta 20, 1 yr old....did all the services the past few months - oil zinc checked impeller etc...all good...changed the primary (racor 500) filter to a 10 micron and changed the secondary filter to the napa gold (3390 i think?) that was provided...
bled the system.
boat works for about an hour, then engine died!
checked and re-bled the secondary filter nut and the bleed nipple at the lift pump...
in each case was pumping the lift pump when tightening to ensure no air entry.
after turning over for several tries the engine would only sputter and die...after each time I would re-bleed and re try for start...it would sputter and not stay on...(air filter is also new)
after 4 or 5 rebleeds (and lots of diesel)...we turned over the engine for the suggested 20-30 seconds...and after sputtering it roared to life....
Left it on at a high idle for about 30 mins....went to lower the throttle to put in gear and test prior to leaving the dock...as soon as I idled back the throttle the engine died ...(when normally it would run)....each attempt to restart has failed...it sputters and wont run,,,
what should I check next...
I also opened and checked the racor filter and gaskets and all new fuel hoses and connections....I am at my wits end....this is a 11,000 project with only about 60hrs....
This appears to be a case of air in the fuel so you need to check carefully from the tank all the way to the engine. Without knowing how your fuel system is layed out, it is almost impossible to pip point from here what the issue actually is so please answer the following questions; Where is the tank in relation from the engine - above the engine or below? How long is the run of hose from the tank to the engine? What speed does the engine idle at? Is the fuel return line run in accordance with the instructions in your owners / operators manual?
When you use the lift pump on the engine to bleed the fuel you may have to turn the engine over 1/2 turn to get the lift pump to operate properly as the engine often stops with the cam holding the lift pump in the partially open position.
For what it's worth, I had what sounds like the same problem with my 1505 about a year ago. Fought it for 2-3 days at sea without success. I decided it was an air leak (couldn't think of anything else!), but search as I might I couldn't find any evidence. Then I found a tiny damp spot at the fitting going into the tank selector valve. I whacked off about an inch of the fuel line there and re-clamped it and never saw the problem again. I think Stanley is right, but it can be the devil to find sometimes. Good luck, Ken
I forgot. The damp spot was on the fuel line side of the clamp, not at the actual fitting insertion. Good fitting, good insertion, good clamp (I had checked all those), pinhole in the line at the edge of the clamp on the back side, of course. Ken
the boat is a catalina 30, fuel hose is not long 4 feet? max....tank to racor, then 2-3' racor to engine... the tank is very near level with engine heiight....just aft ....the fuel return line goes back ...and comes up (from hte bottom of tank level ) to the return inlet on tank....
i have read about the lift pump / crank ..but mine has worked every time ..fuel has purged and squirted every time....
My next action is to remove eliminate teh racor and add a jug of clean diesel, bleed and run..to see if it runs on a clean jug of new diesel, eliminating the majoritey of the fuel system....(this will be thursday)...
I was also curious about the necessity to have the fuel polished??...it has been in a "full" 20 gall tank since last august...has anti-growth additive....and the engine was run every few weeks alll year...only had issues since doing the fuel filters....
Can you comment on using a 10 micron in the racor primary ...vs a 30 ? i dont think that is the issue ..opinion?
You should be fine with either the 10 or the 30 micron Racor. The on engine fuel filter should be 5 to 7 micron. As this issue only started after you changed filters, I suggest that take the Racor apart again and check very carefully. Is the large seal properly in the groove in the lid? Is the small seal around the handle intact?
Hello, we utilized a fresh can of diesel with new hose connected to the inlet at the lift pump - did (another) new secondary filter and bled.....
no start ..
loosened the 10mm bolt (bleed screw) at the manual lift pump, turned over engine and got lots of fuel flow; tightened this up and then loosened the 3 injector bolts at the top of the engine and got no fuel...there appears to be an air lock at between the manual lift and the top injectors....
(air lock at the high pressure pump)
Does beta marine have a recommended process to remove this airlock?...
(also checked the stop solenoid and it is functioning)...
This is a simple idea that I learnt years ago. Install an outboard engines fuel line squeeze bulb in the diesel fuel line, after the Racor filter. Then when you do service the engine, you "bleed" it by simply using the squeeze bulb to force any air through the fuel system, and back to the tank, via the excess fuel line. This obviates the need to bleed off air, no mess, and it is much faster than the fiddly little fuel pump lever. I just screw the new engine fuel filter in position, but not tight. Then I fill it with diesel, using the squeeze bulb, and then tighten it. There is therefore only a little air to force through. I fitted a squeeze bulb on my yacht in 1996. I have just re engined with a Beta 50, and the squeeze bulb is still in use!
This is not an air lock. If the injection pump gets fuel it will work. You wont be able to pump through it with anything. The lift pump is working. I suspect that there was either some water or other foreign that got in the fuel pump when the filters were changed and this has gumbed up the works. The other possibility is a stuck rack on the injection pump. In either case, this has become a job for a mechanic.
can the injection pump be opened up.....i talked to a beta mechanic late yesterday who said although very rare - it has occured that an air lock could be in the high pressure injection pump....I was a little unsure of the exact process to rectify - it involved the lower 3 injection rod outlet bolts at the pump end....loosen to remove them, then loosen only slightly there threaded fittings (that the bolts just came off).....etc....are you familiar with this -
They key point is although the filters were changed....the engiine ran for about 1 hr after changing (which was a few weeks ago)...and again the other day for about 30mins....both times it was running at a substantial idle and would die when at low idle.....
currently when turning over with c **** closed and top injectors unscrewwed there is little no fuel.....(very miniscule fuel).....but no fuel and no fuel squirting or coming when cranking
the problem is definetly in the injection lift high pressure pump...i have several hours today to fix....so should be able if you can provide a recommendation...that will allow fuel to the injectors...?
The Problem was broken springs in the zexel (now bosch) high pressure injection pump.
Cause was definetly from moisture - condensation at the pump site....i am curious if the engine is burning off the condensation created when running....(at the dock in gear temp goes to about 165.... on the ocean cruising 5-6 knots engine goes 175ish....)
I just changed the oil recently in Late spring (april i believe) the boat was only run for about 40 mins each way for a haul out....wash and zinc.....when we pulled the injection pump there was slight bit of milkiness directly below it...from the last drive for haulout and the 1hr and 20 mins or so running after changing filters....?...I know this case of moisture did not cause the failure as the rust and corrosion from the pump rebuilders said this is from some time ago...(last time we used the boat was aug19 2010) so it sat all winter with this moistre....I am worrried this could occur again as I do not see much to change or do differently ..?...one suggestion was to fill the entire engine with oil over the winter so the pump is sitting in an oil bath all during the off season??
any ideas ? ...
Beta UK is curious if the water lift is big enough to prevent sea water from entering the engine...but this has never occured or the dipstick would be a milkshake too....the water lift is a 6x6 round unit....2" hoses / a westerbeke hirise exhaust elbow is on the back on engine too?....(if salt water did enter I suspect I would be having many other problems to)
I apologise for the late reply. I have been away for a few weeks. The Vernerlift muffler pictured is too small for a Catalina 30 exhaust and will be largely full after the engine has been shut down.
I would also get a shop to carefully check the exhaust elbow that you have fitted. I found out many years ago that the aluminum is very thin cast and we had an issue with one where a crack developed when it was hot. Of course it closed up and didnt show up when it was cold.
Interesting, I agree it is likely too small, however how does one "prove" that salt water did not enter the engine (all the way to the injection pump) ....It is most agreed that the moisture that damaged the pump was from condensation at the pump site;
Further (and impossible to "prove") ...In the 64 hrs used on the motor during 2010, the boat was only very minimally sailed, (and not to any extreme) ....and the motor used after the sail during the same vacation....this year (just the other day) returned from a 3.5week holiday, motored the entire trip (due to what I have learned)....engine now has 160ish hrs on it and worked great....
Do you have a size recommendation for a lift muffler? ...I am hoping to discuss this week with where I purchased the entire package (all parts) and they all should have been "matched" for eachothers use....(I did not pick or buy any of this stuff on my own) ...as I wanted it to be a total "system"..
I think its ironic that the pump failed how it did, yet in viewing the install pics one of the components (supplied) could also have led to a similar failure yet with much more devastating results?.
I have often used the Catalina mufflers and they have a large capacity and seem to work well.
It is hard to say what caused the pump problem without seeing the engine and the pump. Even then it may be a bit gray with the determination. Where in the pump was the contamination? What kind of oil are you using?
The problem can be caused when the engine is not in use for an extended period and is subjected to cold temps in a damp climate. Some lubricants stay attached to the metal surfaces of the engine all through winter without problem and others dont. When an engine is running the oil starts to break down and there are acids and water which form in the carrier oil in small amounts. This is why I always recommend that engines be laid up with fresh oil. I have never had this type of failure using fresh oil.
The failure was moisture (rusting) on the internal springs of the injection pump...(they are not in the fuel ) so fuel moisture eliminated.... they are in an oil bath when engine operating....the springs (2 were broken) 1 was about to go....
I am using Chevron (in 2010) Shell now...marine 15 40 oil from the local marine store...
I was advised to Not use synthetic oils...
The injection shop suggested just filling the oil to the top of the engine if its going to sit again all winter (keeping the entire pump encompassed in an oil bath)....just remember to drain obviously before starting....sounds like a cheap alternative to risking a similar problem next year....the boat is in an above zero climate pretty much year round with a small heater in the cabin to keep things above freezing...4-7celcius in the dead of winter....
I think this October will install a T at the sea water intake to siphon in pink water antifreeze and eliminaet salt water from the hi-rise elbow; fog the cylinders and fill the engine with oil....any ideas about doing those 3 things...should protect it well into the spring....
**The one question that no one has ever answered is the actual oil capacity of the beta 20 (shallow sump)....so I can measure it in when doing oil changes....totally unrelated to my injection pump issue...but do you know the answer...cannot find in the manual anywhere....have an engraved line on my dipstick...but still like to measure in ...(the tranny is 200ml) ...
Your post on August 7th states that there was moisture (milkiness) in the oil and this is likely to have caused the problem. I believe that if you dont increase the size of waterlift muffler, you are likely to have the same problem again.
It is not necessary to fill an engine with oil over winter and it is not necessary to "fog" a diesel engine. Running potable antifreeze throught the raw water system when you lay the boat up is a good idea. Run the engine until the exhaust pumps out some pink stuff and you know that you have protected the system.
The oil sump capacity is listed on page 4 of the operators maintenance manual which was included with your engine. You will see that with the shallow sump, the capacity is 3.4 litres (this includes the oil filter).
Yes, moisture ...but NOT salt water though ...so the only guess I have is from not running it for long enough for the engine to burn off the condensation - - I have been told that upon start up ...until the diesel is hot ..there is condensation created inside..?
Presuming this is the case - the moisture caused corrosion on the pump springs...2 were snapped in pieces...
The other issue is we only used the boat (with new engine) July and August 2010 ..until maint was done in spring 2011....
The pump rebuild shop though figure the corrosion started "sometime ago" end quote...which I presume was in summer 2010...when we put 60hrs or so on the engine.
The warranty staff at BetaUK seemed understanding and willing too assist possibly with some of my costs to repair.. as apparently this is unheard of with this low of hours....but after they saw the install pic - (on this site too) ...they are suggesting that salt water entered the engine... (which it didnt - as we barely used and even less sailed the boat) ...+ there would be much greater problems....
We just put another 100 hrs on the boat this past AUgust....all motoring...all HOT temps...and long runs...(I made sure of that- to ensure any condensation is burned off)...
I am very curious if the pump was removed right now...if the same (small amount) of white milkiness would be evident....what do you think?
have not yet done the water muffler, I am hoping that Sound Marine will take the old one back and supply the correct one, as they provided all the pieces and parts that I bought from 1 supplier (so it all matches) ... Joe is a little busy with hurricane; but we are still trying to find a time to discuss the issue ? ...I did ask him about this last year (as the centek one is very small compared to the catalina one) ....he assured me it would work....
In any event catalinadirect.com offers there catalina muffler (350usd) ...available with side in top out which likely would work, (I will be very upset though if the motor has to come out to "fit" the large exhaust muffler into the space) ....
The other option I am considering (although not convenient) would be to take the boat to Sydney to Gartside Marine (VictoriaBC) and have Ben assess and advise the exhaust system...
Thankyou for all your advice and assistance here, if anything people who view this will see the good service and info provided ...which I have been very impressed with. I will forward the bills as you requested.
The muffler that you have installed is too small. If you dont change it for one that has enough capacity for your boat, you can expect to have the same problem again. The folks at Catalina aren't total dummies and they sized the waterlock muffler large on the C30 for a very good reason.
Your arrangements with your suppliers are not really in the scope of this forum.
