Repower 1980 Fast Passage 39

BruceB · Veteran Member

Repower 1980 Fast Passage 39

Stanley · Guru

Hello Bruce and welcome to the forum.

The Fast Passage 39 is not a boat that I am familiar with. I have pulled up the boat specs here sailboatdata.com/sailboat/fast-passage-39
This looks like a great boat for trade wind sailing and I think that it is well named. However when you consider the power boat side of the equation, the 16" propeller limitation is awful and will limit boat speed under power. I would say that the Beta 38 with 2.45:1 may be the better choice as the prop calc program shows better boat speed with this combination than with the Beta 43 with 2:1. This will also save you some $$ as well.

BruceB · Veteran Member

Stanley,

Thanks for the welcome.

I was afraid of the prop diameter restrictions being an issue. Here's a photo from the last haulout. Pretty tight fit, eh?

Can you elaborate on the reasoning for the better performance with the Beta 38? Is it the higher RPM's? What does your prop calc program state the pitch should be on the prop for this combination?

Thanks!

BruceB · Veteran Member

Also, which transmission are you using for the 2.45:1 ratio?

BruceB · Veteran Member

Doing a bit of research on this I'm seeing I can use a smaller prop with the 1.55:1 ratio and the Beta 43. According to the prop calc I found online (www.vicprop.com/displacement_size.php) I only need a 15" 3-blade prop. Other ratios require a much larger prop than I can fit on the boat. You guys are the experts though so will default to your recommendations. I'm justs a bit shy of running a high RPM engine. What are pluses and minuses on a 3600 RPM engine vs. a 2800 RPM engine?

Thanks!

BruceB · Veteran Member

I might also add that I have 800Ah of AGM batteries and am currently running a Balmar 94-12-210 alternator with serpentine belt on my 4.108. I'm assuming that would have some impact on the engine. I checked and my 2" mount won't work on the Beta engines, which require a 3.15" dual foot saddle mount, correct? :( Is there a retrofit where I could use my alternator, or do I need to purchase a new one? I would prefer a 210A as I have quite a bit of battery capacity to charge. Thoughts on this as well, please.

Thanks!

Stanley · Guru

Using the TMC 60 transmission with 2.45:1 ratio on the Beta 38.

Working on the boat specs from sailboatdata.com the propeller called for is 16"x13" three blade.

If you go with the Beta 43 with 2:1 transmission, the propeller calculation calls for 16"x14" three blade which is not as efficient as 16"x13" causing a decrease in expected boat speed of .2 knot.

Ask Fred at PYI to run the prop calculations as he is the Max Prop expert. It is possible that the flat blades of the Max Prop will provide slightly different results than the curved blades of a regular propeller.

-- Edited by Stanley on Friday 7th of June 2019 10:07:27 AM

Stanley · Guru

BruceB wrote:
I might also add that I have 800Ah of AGM batteries and am currently running a Balmar 94-12-210 alternator with serpentine belt on my 4.108. I'm assuming that would have some impact on the engine. I checked and my 2" mount won't work on the Beta engines, which require a 3.15" dual foot saddle mount, correct? :( Is there a retrofit where I could use my alternator, or do I need to purchase a new one? I would prefer a 210A as I have quite a bit of battery capacity to charge. Thoughts on this as well, please.

Thanks!

I suggest a new alternator. By the time that you have finished messing around with custom mounts etc, you will have spent enough money to have purchased a new alternator.

Why would you want an old alternator on your new engine?

BruceB · Veteran Member

Actually the alternator has only about 100 hours on it, so it is quite new. That being said, I get your point. :) Do you offer a 94-210 for the Beta's or is it physically too big to fit?

Regarding the TMC 60, I see that it has an offset shaft configuration and I'm worried that it will cause the engine to be raised too high. Of course without going through the effort to calculate this, I might be speaking prematurely. The VD71 is straight through.

Question on hydraulic vs. mechanical for the transmission. Are there benefits of one over the other? I know the VD is hydraulic, but really don't know way one would choose hydraulic over mechanical.

Thanks!

Stanley · Guru

I suggest looking at the newest Balmar XT alternator. These run quite cool, give good output and work well with the ARS 5 or MC614 regulators. It is possible to fit the 94 series alternator with dual foot to the standard alternator position on the Beta 43. I suggest that this gets sent to the factory so that they can fit it and test it on your engine. This will ensure that the belt is true.

If your Velvet Drive (1.91:1) is in good condition, why not have it freshened up with new clutch plates and seals and keep it? Then you can order a Beta 43 with Velvet Drive adaptor kit. The prop called for in this instance is 16"x13" three blade which is the same as for the Beta 38 with 2.45:1 TMC 60.

-- Edited by Stanley on Friday 7th of June 2019 01:34:50 PM

BruceB · Veteran Member

Hmmm...hadn't thought about a different Balmar alternator than the 94. The XT's are only rated for 170A. Any reason to not go with the AT model vs. the 94? I have an older MC612 regulator, so would probably use that unless instructed not to. Good point on sending a custom alternator to the factory for fitting. I certainly wouldn't want it out of alignment.

My VD is, I believe, in good condition. I am only the second owner of the boat and according to the odometer the engine had only 327 hours on it, and I've put another 200+ on the engine since. I would certainly want to rebuild it prior to putting it back in the boat though. Just to be safe.

Does the VD adaptor come with everything needed to attach a VD to the engine? Meaning, bell housing, damper, and oil cooler?

Most helpful information. Thanks!

Stanley · Guru

I suspect that your 912 regulator will be just fine. Speak to someone at Balmar to what the differance is between the old ones and the new ones. They have to know more about the programming of these than I do.

These new Balmar alternators with the special windings and cases do actually run cooler that the older ones and this helps them to provide a better output .

The Velvet Drive adaptor kit includes a Centa style drive plate, the studs, transmission oil cooler and the hoses to connect between the oil cooler and the transmission. You will need to provide the transmission and some red paint so that everything will look great when it gets installed in the boat.

BruceB · Veteran Member

So I just had some emails back and forth with Fred at PYI, and after giving him some details, here was his reply:
Pitch settings I would use are as follows:

Beta 35 with 2:1 ratio 11 of pitch or 20 degrees of blade angle

Beta 38 with 2.6:1 ratio 12 of pitch or 22 degrees of blade angle

Beta 43 with 2:1 ratio 12 of pitch or 22 degrees of blade angle

Next step is to see if I still have oil consumption problems with my 4.108. If I do, I'll start measuring for a new Beta. Hopefully the 43 will fit. What do I need to get you guys for customizing the motor mounts to my rails?

Stanley · Guru

The ratio of your Velvet Drive is 1.91:1 in fwd. This is the ratio that should be used for the propeller calculations. Using another set of numbers will provide the wrong answers.

The rear mounts should be on the Velvet Drive transmission so the position of these will be the same. You just need to allow for the different size of flex mount if yours are the small 4" ones. I suggest that if you custom mounts, you download the form here www.betamarinenc.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/05/special-feet-details2-4.pdf and then provide the completed form to your dealer to process. Please note that you cannot take accurate measurements until the old engine has been removed from the boat.

-- Edited by Stanley on Tuesday 11th of June 2019 08:39:23 AM

BruceB · Veteran Member

Understood. Fred had recommended against using my old transmission and that's why he gave me the different ratios than the 1.91:1 of the VD. So am considering a new transmission.

Beta offers multiple choices for transmissions. Some are mechanical and some are hydraulic. Is there an advantage of one over the other?

Also, what transmissions brands are the more popular ones being purchased for the 43 and 36? Does any one brand stand out as more reliable or is it more of a Chevy vs. Ford thing?

Stanley · Guru

This makes no sense. Why do you want to rebuild the engine beds and much of the engine compartment to change the transmission ratio from 1.91:1 to 2:1? This is what will happen if you change from the Velvet Drive transmission with no drop center to a short mechanical drop center gear.
I suggest that you spend some time with the dealer and his mechanic to go over the installation.

BruceB · Veteran Member

My mistake, it wasn't Fred at PYI, it was John at AAC (morganscloud.com) who recommended I not use my old transmission.

This brings me back to transmission brands that are reliable. Is an old VD 71C worth rebuilding, or is it better to put a new transmission in. Beta is recommending new engines over rebuilding, so does that statement hold true for a transmission as well?

Stanley · Guru

The Velvet Drive is way overspecced for these small diesels and all parts are readily available and at very reasonable prices.

Many older small diesels have the exact opposite result. Parts are very expensive and often no longer available.

BruceB · Veteran Member

Got it. Very good to know. So a VD 71C seems to be worth keeping and overhauling. And it would probably be less expensive for labor to install a new 43 into an existing VD configuration, right?

Stanley · Guru

As you said. You got it!

Drsteve · Newbie

Hello Bruce:

I have an '82 FP39 I may need to repower soon and I am looking for any advice on how to accomplish the removal and refitting of the 4-108 given the tight access. My vessel like all of them I presume, has half the engine in the quarter berth and half in the galley, covered by fixed walls, cabinetry and counter top. The companionway and coach roof hatches are < 24" in max dimension as you must know. I appreciate any guidance you might offer.

Thanks,

Steve

BruceB · Veteran Member

Sorry for the late reply. I haven't looked at this forum for some time. Hopefully I'm not too late. I replied to the whiteboard and couldn't fit all this in, so am now writing via your post.

It was lot's of fun. :) I found some 1/2" honeycomb cardboard and cut it to fit all the wood walls and floor of the boat where the engine could possibly damage it. These panels are very crush resistant. The exposed edges, like the doorway to the aft berth, I covered with 3/4" pipe insulation, the type you can get a Home Depot with a slit the entire length. I took the companionway steps out and the dodger and bimini off.

I then removed everything I could off the old Perkins 4.108 including the head to make it smaller and lighter to remove. Attached a chain and then cable from the crane to the engine and slowly moved it aft and out of the boat. Once the engine was ready to take out it only took about an hour to get it out and onto a palette.

I had beta build me a custom set of supports so the engine fit almost perfectly onto the old engine rails. Beta should have the plans to construct these for you. There were about 3/8" too high, so I added shims under the mounts, otherwise it was perfect. I also had them move the oil filter to the rear of the engine. They should have the plans for that as well. I purchased the larger exhaust elbow and had a shop cut and reconfigure it to fit the small location.

Getting the new engine in was a bit more of a hassle. I didn't take as much off as I did on the Perkins, and wound up needing to take more off while it was hanging in the companionway. I would suggest removing the transmission. It would have made it much easier to turn in the narrow companionway. I put 2x6s from the aft berth floor through to the galley over the engine rails so the engine could slide forward. We pulled it forward by attaching a come along to the front of the engine and the mast. to pull it into place. Then took the 2x6s out.

If you want more info and some picture email me at bbbayne@gmail.com.